Talk:Definite atonement

Definite atonement

I need to add a section to this topic about how limited atonement is really more properly understood as definite atonement, that Jesus died not just so he could hold out an opportunity for salvation to all men generally, but so he could make salvation a sure thing for his sheep. Lessons 12 and 13 in Piper’s TULIP study are a useful resource here. — Joey 02:28, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

Objections

Also, in the interest of completeness, I should probably also list passages that seem to contradict the doctrine of limited atonement. — Joey 04:48, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

I love this John Owen quote

John 4:42, and 1 John 4:14, with John 6:51 (which was before considered), are also produced by Thomas More; in all which places Christ is called the “Saviour of the world.”

Ans. Christ is said to be the Saviour of the world, either, first, because there is no other Saviour for any in the world, and because he saves all that are saved, even the people of God (not the Jews only), all over the world; or, secondly, because he doth actually save all the world, and every one in it. If in this latter way, vicisti [you win], Mr. More; if in the former, “we are still where we were.”

—John Owen, The Death of Death in the Death of Christ (Kindle Locations 4026-4030). Diggory Press. Kindle Edition.

1 John 2:2

Here's another great Owen quote, specifically about 1 Jn 2:2:

Fifthly, If the words are to be understood to signify all and every one in the world, then is the whole assertion useless as to the chief end intended,—namely, to administer consolation to believers; for what consolation can arise from hence unto any believer, that Christ was a propitiation for them that perish? Yea, to say that he was a sufficient propitiation for them, though not effectual, will yield them no more comfort than it would have done Jacob and his sons to have heard from Joseph that he had corn enough, sufficient to sustain them, but that he would do so was altogether uncertain; for had he told them he would sustain them sufficiently, though not effectually, they might have starved notwithstanding his courtesy.

—John Owen, The Death of Death in the Death of Christ (Kindle Locations 3913-3918). Diggory Press. Kindle Edition.

What do Arminians think about Jesus interceding?

Do Arminians affirm universal intercessory prayer? Why would Jesus die for someone and then not intercede on their behalf to the Father? Why die for everyone and intercede only for believers? Do any Scriptures tie Christ’s atonement directly with his intercessory work so as to make it one and the same group of people he does both for? Romans 8:34 gets close, I think. 1Jn 2:1–2 is another place where propitiation and intercession appear in close proximity.

EDIT: Owen affirms and defends exactly this idea in Chapters 7 and 8 of his Death of Death. He cites Isa 53:11–12; Ro 8:32–34; 1Jn 2:1–2; Heb 7:24–27; 9:11–12; 10:19–22, then sums up thusly:

These two, then, oblation and intercession, must in respect of their objects be of equal extent, and can by no means be separated. And here, by the way (the thing being by this argument, in my apprehension, made so clear), I cannot but demand of those who oppose us about the death of Christ, whether they will sustain that he intercedeth for all or no;—if not, then they make him but half a priest; if they will, they must be necessitated either to defend this error, that all shall be saved, or own this blasphemy, that Christ is not heard of his Father, nor can prevail in his intercession, which yet the saints on earth are sure to do when they make their supplications according to the will of God, Rom. 8:27; 1 John 5:14. Besides that, of our Saviour it is expressly said that the Father always heareth him, John 11:42; and if that were true when he was yet in the way, in the days of his flesh, and had not finished the great work be was sent about, how much more then now, when, having done the will and finished the work of God, he is set down on the right hand of the Majesty on high, desiring and requesting the accomplishing of the promises that were made unto him upon his undertaking this work!

—John Owen, The Death of Death in the Death of Christ (Kindle Locations 507-515). Kindle Edition.

Possible support for definite atonement

Here are some verses I think support definite atonement, but may not be convincing to everyone:

Rev 1:5–6

1Ti 4:10

Owen's refutation of 1Ti 4:10:

Is there any word here spoken of Christ as mediator? Is it not the "living God" in whom we trust that is the Saviour here mentioned, as the words going before in the same verse are? And is Christ called so in respect of his mediation? That God the Father is often called Saviour I showed before, and that he is here intended, as is agreed upon by all sound interpreters, so also it is clear from the matter in hand, which is the protecting providence of God, general towards all, special and peculiar towards his church. Thus he is said to "save man and beast," Ps. 36:6, rendering the Hebrew, Yasha, by the Greek, Soter, "Thou shalt save or preserve." It is God, then, that is here called the "Saviour of all," by deliverance and protection in danger, of which the apostle treats, and that by his providence, which is peculiar towards believers; and what this makes for a universal mediation I know not.

Now, the very context in this place will not admit of any other interpretation; for the words render a reason why, notwithstanding all the injury and reproaches wherewith the people of God are continually assaulted, yet they should cheerfully go forward to run with joy the race that is set before them; even because as God preserveth all (for "in him we live, and move, and have our being," Acts 17:28; Ps. 145:14-16), so that he will not suffer any to be injured and unrevenged, Gen. 9:5, so is he especially the preserver of them that do believe; for they are as the apple of his eye, Zech. 2:8; Deut. 32:10. So that if he should suffer them to be pressed for a season, yet let them not let go their hope and confidence, nor be weary of well-doing, but still rest on and trust in him.

—John Owen. The Death of Death in the Death of Christ (Kindle Locations 637-649). Kindle Edition.

From Whence This Fear and Unbelief

I posted about this hymn in my Quora answer to the question If Jesus died to pay for the sins of the world, then why would we have to go to hell ourselves and pay for them again?.

I love the hymn by Augustus Toplady, “From Whence This Fear and Unbelief?”:

From whence this fear and unbelief,
Since God my Father, put to grief
His spotless Son for me?
Can he, the righteous judge of men,
Condemn me for that debt of sin,
Which, Lord, was charged on Thee?

Complete atonement Thou hast made,
And to the utmost farthing paid,
Whate'er Thy people owed;
How, then, can wrath on me take place,
If sheltered in Thy righteousness,
And sprinkled with Thy blood.

If Thou hast my discharge procured,
And freely in my place endured
The whole of wrath divine,
Payment God will not twice demand,
First at my bleeding Surety's hand,
And then again at mine.

Turn, then, my soul, unto thy rest:
The merits of thy Great High Priest
Speak peace and liberty:
Trust in His efficacious blood,
Nor fear thy banishment from God,
Since Jesus died for thee.