Talk:Joseph

Searches

Todo:

• <Person Kingdom of Israel (people)>
• <Person Kingdom of Israel (Divided Kingdom)>
• <Person Kingdom of Judah>

Done:

• <Person Joseph (son of Jacob)> OR <Person Ephraim> OR <Person Manasseh (son of Joseph)> OR <Person Josephites> OR <Person Ephraimites> OR <Person Manassites> (1,536 results in 542 verses)

Other relevant passages?

Search results for Kingdom of Israel (Divided, Northern Kingdom)

1Ki 12:1, 3–7, 9–16, 18–21, 24, 27–28, 30–31, 33; 13:33; 14:2, 7, 13–16, 18; 15:9, 16–17, 19–20, 25–27, 30, 32–34; 16:2, 8, 13, 16–17, 19–21, 23, 26, 29, 33; 17:1, 14; 18:17–22, 24, 30, 33–34, 37, 39–40; 19:10, 14; 20:2, 4, 7–8, 11, 13, 15–16, 20–23, 25–29, 31–32, 40–43; 21:7, 18, 22; 22:1–6, 8–10, 17–18, 26, 28–34, 41, 44, 51–53; 2Ki 1:1, 16, 18; 2:12; 3:1, 3–7, 9–13, 24–25, 27; 4:13; 5:5–8; 6:8–12, 21, 26; 7:6, 12–13, 16–17, 20; 8:12, 16, 25–26; 9:3, 6, 8, 12, 14, 21; 10:9–10, 18–20, 29, 31–32, 35–36; 13:1–7, 10–11, 14, 16, 18, 22–23; 14:1, 8–9, 11–13, 17, 23–27; 15:1, 8–9, 17–18, 20–21, 23–24, 27–29, 31–32; 16:5, 7; 17:1, 6–12, 21, 23–24; 21:3; 23:15; 1Ch 5:17; 10:1, 3–7, 9–16, 18–19; 11:1, 4, 16; 13:4–5, 7–9, 11–13, 15–18; 15:9, 13; 16:1, 3, 11; 17:1, 4; 18:3–5, 7–9, 14, 16–17, 19, 25, 27–34; 20:35; 22:5; 25:6–7, 9, 17–18, 21–22, 25; 28:8–14; Isa 7:1–2, 5, 8–9, 17; 8:14–15; 9:8–14, 16–17, 19–20; Jer 41:9; 48:13; Hos 1:2, 4–6, 9–11; 3:1, 4–5; 4:1–3, 6–10, 12–19; 5:1, 3–7, 9, 11–15; 6:1–5, 7, 10–11; 7:1–4, 6–16; 8:1–14; 9:1–17; 10:1–6, 8–15; 11:2–12; 12:1–2, 4, 6, 8–9, 11, 14; 13:1–16; 14:1–8; Am 2:6, 8–13; 3:1–2, 9, 11–13; 4:1–12; 5:1–7, 11–12, 14–15, 17–18, 21–23, 25–27; 6:1–8, 12–14; 7:2, 5, 8, 10–11, 15–17; 8:2–8, 10, 14; 9:1–4, 7–10, 12, 14–15; Mic 1:1–2, 5, 9, 16; 2:7–12; 3:1–3, 5, 8–9; 5:2, 5–6, 10–14; 6:1–5, 9, 12–16; 7:14–15, 17, 19–20

Search results for Kingdom of Judah

2Sa 2:7, 10–11, 26–28, 30, 32; 3:32, 34–37; 5:5; 11:11; 12:8; 19:10–12, 14–16, 40–43; 20:2, 4–6; 24:1, 9; 1Ki 1:9, 35; 2:32; 4:20, 25; 11:32, 36; 12:17, 23–24, 27; 14:21–24, 29; 15:1, 7, 9, 17, 22–23, 25, 28, 33; 16:8, 10, 15, 23, 29; 22:2, 4, 10, 29, 41, 43, 45, 51; 2Ki 1:17; 3:1, 7, 9, 14; 8:16, 19–23, 25, 29; 9:16, 21, 27, 29; 10:13; 11:13–14, 17–20; 12:3, 8, 18–19; 13:1, 10, 12; 14:1, 4, 9–13, 15, 17–18, 21, 23; 15:1, 4–6, 8, 10, 13, 17, 23, 27, 32, 35–37; 16:1, 6, 15; 17:13–20; 18:1, 5, 14, 16, 22; 19:10, 19, 29–30; 20:5, 20; 21:9, 11, 14–17, 24–25; 22:4, 13, 16–19; 23:2–3, 5–6, 11–12, 21–22, 26–28, 30, 35; 24:5, 12, 14, 20; 25:3, 11, 19, 21–22, 26–27; 1Ch 4:41; 5:17; 6:15; 9:1; 21:5; 2Ch 10:17; 11:3–4, 17; 12:1–2, 5–6; 13:1, 10–18; 14:4, 7, 9, 11–15; 15:2, 7, 9–12, 14–15; 16:1, 6–7, 10–11; 17:5, 9; 18:2–3, 9, 27–28; 19:1, 4, 7–8, 10–11; 20:3–7, 9, 11–22, 24–29, 31, 33, 35; 21:2, 4, 8, 10–14, 19; 22:1, 6, 8, 10; 23:2, 5, 8, 12–13, 16–17, 20–21; 24:5–6, 10, 17–21, 23–24; 25:5, 11–12, 17–23, 25–26; 26:1, 21; 27:7; 28:6, 8–11, 15, 17, 19, 23, 26; 29:6–10, 21, 23–24, 28–29, 31–32, 36; 30:1–9, 12, 24–25; 31:5–8, 10; 32:6–9, 12, 17, 23, 25, 32–33; 33:8–11, 16–18, 25; 34:9, 11, 21, 23–30, 32–33; 35:3, 5–8, 12–13, 17–18, 21, 24, 27; 36:1, 4, 8, 10, 13–17, 23; Ezr 1:3–6, 8, 11; 2:1–2, 59, 64–67, 70; 3:1–2, 8, 11, 13; 4:1, 3–6, 12–13, 21, 23; 5:1, 5, 8, 10, 12; 6:7–8, 14, 16–17, 19–22; 7:6–7, 11, 13–16, 24, 27–28; 8:25, 29, 35–36; 9:1–2, 4, 6–10, 13–15; 10:1–14, 16, 25; Neh 1:2–3, 6–7, 10–11; 2:10, 16; 4:1–6, 9–16, 19–23; 5:1–15, 17–19; 6:1, 6, 9, 16; 7:5–7, 61, 66–68, 72–73; 8:1–3, 5–13, 16–18; 9:1–3, 5, 9, 16, 32–34, 36–38; 10:14, 28–39; 11:1–3, 20, 24; 12:30–32, 43–44, 47; 13:1–4, 12, 16, 18, 27, 30; Est 2:10, 20; 3:4, 6, 8–11, 13; 4:3, 7–8, 13–14, 16; 6:13; 7:3–4; 8:1, 3, 5–9, 11, 13, 16–17; 9:1–3, 5–6, 10, 12–13, 15–16, 18, 20–28, 30–31; 10:3; Ps 48:11; 97:8; Pr 25:1; Isa 1:1–7, 9–20, 24; 2:5–8; 3:4–10, 12, 14–15; 5:3, 5, 7, 13, 19, 24–25; 6:5, 8–10, 12–13; 7:2, 9, 13–14, 17; 8:6–7, 10–15, 17, 19–22; 9:1–4, 6, 21; 10:2, 24, 27; 12:3–6; 14:30, 32; 21:10, 12, 17; 22:4, 21; 26:1–4, 8, 11–13, 15–18, 20; 28:11–12, 14; 29:19; 30:1–6, 8–13, 15–23, 26, 29; 31:1, 3, 6–7; 32:13, 15, 18, 20; 33:2, 4, 6–7, 11, 17–24; 36:7; 37:10, 16, 20–21, 23, 30–31; 38:9; 40:1, 9; Jer 1:2–3, 14, 16–19; 2:4–5, 7, 9–11, 13–37; 3:1–5, 7–11, 18; 4:3–8, 10–13, 17, 22; 5:11, 14–15, 17–19, 21–26, 29, 31; 7:2–17, 19, 21–22, 25–33; 8:1–3, 11, 14–17, 19–22; 9:1–9, 13–16, 25–26; 10:1–2, 5, 16, 21, 25; 11:2–7, 9–18; 12:7–8, 11–14, 16; 13:9–17, 19; 14:2–3, 7–14, 16–17, 19–22; 15:1–4, 10, 13–14, 19–20; 16:5–13, 16–18; 17:1–4, 12–13, 19–27; 18:6, 11–13, 15–17; 19:1, 3–5, 7, 9, 11, 15; 20:4–5; 21:4, 7; 22:1–2, 4, 6, 10–11, 18, 24; 23:1–2, 22, 27, 32–36; 24:1, 5, 8; 25:1–11, 15, 18, 27, 30, 34–37; 26:1–5, 10, 18–19, 23; 27:1, 3–4, 12–18, 20–21; 28:1–2, 4, 6, 14; 29:2–4, 8, 21–22, 25, 32; 30:2–4, 6–22, 24; 31:24; 32:1–4, 14–15, 30, 32–36; 33:4, 7–9, 24; 34:2, 4, 6, 13, 19–21; 35:1, 13–19; 36:1–3, 6–7, 9–10, 13–14, 28–32; 37:2–4, 7, 9–10, 18–19; 38:1, 4, 17, 22; 39:1, 4, 6, 8–10, 14, 16; 40:1, 3, 5; 42:9, 15, 18–19; 43:5, 9–10; 44:2–3, 5, 7, 9–11, 25; 45:1–2; 46:2, 25, 27–28; 48:1, 27; 49:34; 50:11, 17, 28–29; 51:5–6, 10, 19, 24, 33, 35, 45–46, 49–51, 59; 52:3, 6, 10, 15, 25, 27–28, 30–31; Lam 1:3, 17; 2:3–4, 11; 3:14, 48; 4:3, 6, 10; Eze 2:3–8; 3:1, 4–5, 7–9, 11, 17, 25–27; 4:3–6, 12–13; 5:2, 4–17; 6:5–9, 11–14; 7:7–9, 11–16, 18–20, 22, 24–27; 8:1, 4, 6, 9–12, 17–18; 9:3, 8–10; 10:19–20; 11:5–13, 22; 12:2–7, 9–12, 14–16, 19–20, 22–25, 27–28; 13:2, 4–5, 9–10, 16–19, 21, 23; 14:1, 4–11, 22–23; 15:7–8; 17:2, 12–14, 21; 18:2–3, 6, 15, 18–19, 25, 29–32; 19:1; 20:1, 3, 27, 30–44, 49; 21:3–7, 10, 12, 14–15, 23–25; 22:18–22; 23:2–4, 11–14, 16–22, 24–49; 24:3, 18–25, 27; 25:3, 8; 27:17; 29:6–7; 35:5, 10–12, 15; 37:16; Dan 1:1–3, 6; Hos 1:2, 7, 11; 3:1, 4–5; 4:1–3, 6–10, 12–15; 5:5–7, 10, 12–15; 6:1–5, 7, 11; 8:14; 9:3, 16; 10:11; 11:12; 12:2; Am 2:4, 10; 3:1–2; 6:1–7; 7:16; 8:12–14; 9:1–2; Ob 1:1, 10–14, 17–18, 20; Mic 1:1–2, 5, 9, 16; 2:7–12; 3:1–3, 5, 8–9; 5:2, 5–6, 10–14; 6:1–5, 9, 12–16; 7:14–15, 17, 19–20; Nah 1:12–13; 2:2; Hab 1:12; 3:16; Zep 1:1, 4, 12–13, 17–18; 2:1–3, 7–10; 3:7–8, 11–12, 14–15, 20; Hag 1:4; 2:2; Zec 1:4; 2:8–11; 9:13; 11:14; 14:5

Steve’s questions

• Is it just about land, though? From your study of the covenant, why do you think there is a firstborn... Who never seems to be the firstborn? And doesn't God seem to elect that person for more blessings and responsibility than the other sons? Why?
• But my main focus is Joseph, the clear "firstborn." In what way was he favored? Just land? That seems a little... Temporary and terrestrial, earthly. The bible follows the story of Abraham's descendants, and Isaac's descendants, and Jacob's descendants with only cursory glances towards Ishmael's and Esau's descendants. Then it CONTINUES this trend in direct contradiction of the firstborn/elect/birthright/covenant: the bible focuses on Judah's descendants with only a cursory glance to the other tribes. But Judah is NOT the birthright. Jesus and the New Testament authors took the gospel FROM the Jews to the Gentiles. So, if Joseph is received the birthright, where is the record of Joseph's prophets and blessings, similar to (or even TWICE, the double portion) the blessings of Judah? The bible is clearly the record of Judah with a focus on Shiloh, the King of Kings who rules and reigns over all Israel. That's it's focus, and that's why it follows Judah. But the greatest blessings, the double portion, are reserved for Joseph through Ephraim and Manasseh. God has a work to do through and with them, the birthright, the firstborn. When you close your mind and eyes to everything outside the record of Judah, you refuse to let God show you the great double portion of his saving work. . . . I'm saying the Genesis story clearly follows the elect son from Adam down to Ephraim. That was the line of patriarchs, those with the birthright. They talked to God. They received his full covenant and the double portion. Then, without explanation, the bible shifts its focus. It goes back up the family line and focuses temporarily on Levi's descendants, and then it focuses on Judah's for the rest of the time. Clearly, all three lines are blessed. They all have covenant blessings and a special relationship with God. YOU have argued that scripture is the sign and legal documentation of a covenant relationship. God made a covenant with the patriarchs, the Jews, the Levites, and the Gentiles. The bible contains THEIR legal documentation. It also appears evident from the bible that God made a special covenant relationship with Joseph's descendants, but we hear almost nothing of them after Ephraim... Only a little about their kings and idolatry, nothing about God's continued interactions with them, as he interacted with the Levite's, Jews, and gentiles. What kind of God makes his most stunning promises and blessings to one son and then spends all his time focusing on a completely different son? God has a work, a blessing, a land of promise, a Zion, and a line of prophets for Joseph, but it's not recorded in the Bible. . . . You're missing the point. The scriptures and the story line should have continued with a heavy focus on Joseph's descendants, but they don't. They follow Judah. Of course, that's because Jesus comes through Judah. But why didn't Judah just get the birthright? Because there are TWO important lines. Judah's blessings are in the work of the bible. Where is Joseph's blessings and work? God could have made Judah Joseph's favorite. He could have sold Judah into Egypt and made Judah save Israel. He could have given Judah the double portion and birthright. Instead, he gave Judah Jesus. He gave everything else to Joseph. Why? . . . My main point is that there is a double-portioned-size hole in the Bible's story of Israel. There is a huge, missing gap, so large that you point out that other people have noticed it. I haven't really focused on what I think fills it. I've only asked the question, "do you see this biblical hole?" Your response to me a minute ago was, "even if there is a hole, it doesn't have to be filled by the restoration." You skipped my question. We can figure out how God intends to fill the hole in a later conversation. Do you see the inconsistency and missing information about the birthright tribe?
• But the blessing Jacob gives to Joseph includes blessings that run over the wall and land that includes the everlasting mountains. What does all that refer to?
• Where/when has Abraham realized the blessings of posterity as numerous as the sands of the seashore. Who are his descendants? . . . But those blessings... Of the covenant, of posterity... went from Abraham to Isaac to Jacob with the firstborn's birthright, they were the covenant of the patriarchs. Why wouldn't it be true for Joseph? Not that all who are Christ's are Joseph's, but that Joseph has innumerable posterity. Wouldn't he have received that blessing, as his father's heir?

My questions for Steve

Steve said:

Anyway, now I can answer a question you asked me a while ago: is the Book of Mormon another testament (covenant) of Jesus Christ? YES! Until tonight I couldn’t say that. The book contains a covenant with Joseph not found anywhere else. It is truly the “stick of Joseph.”

My follow-up questions:

• Why is this not taught in the Church? Or is it? Why did it take you 35 years to realize it? The Abrahamic Covenant and New Covenant are pretty basic features of Christianity. They are understood differently by different groups, and probably not well understood by lay Christians, to be fair, but they are not hard to find in the Bible. Why is the “Covenant of Joseph” so hard to discover in the Book of Mormon? Or would you argue it’s easier to find than I think?
• What are the signs and tokens of the Josephic (Josephite?) Covenant? What are its blessings and conditions? What are the sacraments/ordinances of its administration, if any?

Maps

Sticks of Judah and Ephraim

Eze 37:16–17 — Plain interpretation of sticks is given in following verses. It is obviously a prophecy of the reunification of the Southern Kingdom (ruled by the house of David of the tribe of Judah, beginning with Rehoboam) and the Northern Kingdom (ruled initially by Jeroboam, an Ephraimite, see 1Ki 11:26) — The two kingdoms were split: 1Ki 12:16–20 — Other prophecies of them being reunited: Isa 11:11–13; Jer 3:18; 23:5–6; 50:4; Hos 1:11